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Post by gwek on Dec 23, 2009 22:33:07 GMT -5
Does it matter if he costs roughly the same as Rex?
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 23, 2009 23:52:47 GMT -5
I just wanted to avoid having him in that same niche. So it's less of a "Fordo vs Rex" and more "two different pieces with two different roles to fill". I guess that technically, Fordo should cost more than Rex since Fordo is an ARC but...
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Post by gwek on Dec 24, 2009 9:21:44 GMT -5
Well, at 30-something each, you don't have to choose! You can have both AND a couple followers!
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 24, 2009 10:15:16 GMT -5
I disagree. ARC's have Grenades which can be 1) Bumped to 'Nades 30 with a RCTS 2) Can get double 'Nades from Tarpals. Grenades in itself is a reason to play them, IMO. Why are the 'nades a reason to play him? He is okay with them, but the Republic has far better options with that combo that the ARC Trooper, IMO. There are four characters with Order 66 and Grenades 10: The Clone Trooper Grenadier (costs half as much as the ARC Trooper, has the same special abilities, but lower base stats), Elite Clone Trooper Grenadier (probably not a viable option because of his "specialist" nature), Republic Commando - Scorch (the best option for a squad of this design, IMO. Over the ARC Trooper, he costs 2 less, has -10 HP and -1 attack but has +1 defense, STEALTH, and Satchel Charge, AND gets Shields 2 from the Trainging Sergeant), and the ARC Trooper. I don't see the ARC Trooper's grenades being a reason to play them, simply because there are better options, depending upon the squad flavour you're going with (lots of 'nades or Stealth-y shield 'nades...). So I think Fordo needs to boost them, more than the sniper. Even with Evade, Twin Attack, Grenades 30, and two uses of 'nades, he may be a viable option, but to get to that combo you have to spend (I'll count Fordo as 30) 80 points to give them that. The RCTS makes the Scorches better than the ARCs, even if you spend the extra points on Fordo, IMO. That's why I think they need a Rapport. There's simply NO reason to play them without one. Even just a -1 Rapport would help them. Not much, but it would help. I also agree that we should kind of stay away from where Captain Rex is costed. Because Rex is just so viciously effective at that cost, there's less of a reason to use Fordo over Rex, who is a better combatant and has a CE that affects a broader range of characters. I don't think we should compare Fordo to Argyus. While they are very similar, I think Argyus is costed pretty high for what he does. Argyus's CE also helps (arguably) more effective pieces. I think just under Argyus, at about 27 or 28, would be better than 32-35.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 24, 2009 12:32:05 GMT -5
For the sake of the argument, what does everyone else think of Rapport?
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Post by gwek on Dec 24, 2009 18:55:03 GMT -5
I'm neutral on Rapport. I think he's okay as is, but would not object to the addition. Because Rex is just so viciously effective at that cost, there's less of a reason to use Fordo over Rex, who is a better combatant and has a CE that affects a broader range of characters. I don't think we should compare Fordo to Argyus. While they are very similar, I think Argyus is costed pretty high for what he does. Argyus's CE also helps (arguably) more effective pieces. I think just under Argyus, at about 27 or 28, would be better than 32-35. I think pricing him based solely on Rex, a very aggressively priced piece, would not be a good idea. Rex (and Dash and Jarael and a number of others) are priced agressively so they stand out. That doesn't mean that every piece that follows needs to be aggressively priced to match. It's almost like using the JWM as a basis for cost, while in reality most non-Unique Force-users in the same price range are not nearly as versatile (although each has it's own gimmick to make it an attractive option). Based on what he can do, I think comprable to Rex is a very fair price. If he's not "unique" enough to be played at the price, the fix is not to make him cheaper, but to make him stand out more.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 25, 2009 0:40:37 GMT -5
Well, it's not necessarily that we're pricing him based on Rex, we just want to avoid another similar character in that exact same niche.
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Post by gwek on Dec 25, 2009 10:07:06 GMT -5
I'd say Accurate/Twin is enough of a gimmick to make him a completely different type of piece.
Although they have comparable stats and comparable cost, the special abilities and commader effect are very different.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 25, 2009 11:38:27 GMT -5
Twin and Accurate are a very rare combination in SWM. In fact, there are only three different pieces with that simple combination (as of GaW): Han Solo, Scoundrel, Mira, and of course Boba Fett Bounty Hunter. Oddly enough, all of these pieces also have Mobile Attack, among other things, and cost in the 40s. Fordo isn't comparable to them, so the best pieces to look to are Rex and Dash, Renegade Smuggler. Both pieces are aggressively costed, and both can deal more (double) damage, but lack Accurate. I think, in terms of combat, he's comparable to Dash, more so than Rex, would doesn't really need Accurate because he just blasts everything.
However, Dash is a follower, while this guy has an only somewhat useful CE (it is a huge boost, but it only affects two characters). I think pricing him around the high 20s (27-29) is where he would be best.
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Post by gwek on Dec 25, 2009 16:42:54 GMT -5
I will again compare him to Argyus (another close analog). He's a better piece that Argyus, so should probably cost more. EDIT: Sorry, had to run for Christmas dinner before. I'm not sure why you'd pick Dash for a comparison. Although they have somewhat comparable core stats and both have Twin, there's not much similarlity. I think Han Solo, Scoundrel is a much better point for comparison (although Solo is clearly the "better" piece.) Solo and Fordo have the same base damage (20), roughly comparable stats otherwise (within one notch of each other) and share Twin and Accurate. Solo has the great combo of Cunning Attack, Mobile Attack, and Evade, while Fordo has only ARC Trooper and Order 66. Solo clearly "wins," but Fordo's commander effect must be taken into account. It's somewhat limiting for Fordo, but a great boon in the right squad. Again, I say cheaper than HS Scoundrel, more expensive than Argyus.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 25, 2009 23:25:58 GMT -5
As I've already said, Argyus is overcosted for what he does (IMO). A very, very specific CE can often hurt a piece more than make it more effective, ESPECIALLY in the Republic.
I chose to compare him to Dash because I don't often compare a piece based solely on their abilities, but how they play out. I can see Dash playing very similarly to Fordo, as I've already mentioned.
Just because Fordo happens to be extremely similar to Argyus doesn't mean we should use Argyus as the only character to look to. WotC DOES make mistakes (need I point them out?). Compared to Dash or Rex (both aggressively costed pieces, but Fordo is quite comparable), Fordo is an inferior piece (also keep in mind that Dash is Fringe). In fact, if we want to put him over 30, I would actually suggest tacking Mobile Attack back on him (and a cost of about 37).
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Post by gwek on Dec 25, 2009 23:38:36 GMT -5
Looks like we're simul-posting, so I've added a little more.
By the way, I don't necessarily see a problem with adding Mobile and pricing him in the high 30s.
I'm sorry, but I really don't see any basis for comparison with Dash.
You may be right that Argyus is a bit overpriced, but looking at them structurally, Argyus and Fordo are VERY, VERY similar (closer than Fordo and Solo, or Fordo and Dash).
They have comparable basic stats, Twin Attack, and a commander effect that affects only a small number of pieces (2 for Fordo, 3 for Argyus). Both commander effects give Twin and something else. Under most circumstances, Accurate Shot and Evade are better than Close-Quarters Fighting, and we should also remember that the ARC Troopers are subject to Trooper and Order 66 effects, giving them much better synergy within their faction than Senate Guards.
9 out of 10 times, Fordo and his ARCs are a better bet than Argyus and his Senate Guards as the basis of a squad.
Let's assume that Argyus should really be only 23 points. As I've said, Fordo is all around superior, but it not as good as the (also similarly-statted but superior to Fordo) Han Solo, Scoundrel, who costs 46.
Splitting the difference, that puts Fordo at 34 or 35.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 27, 2009 14:34:32 GMT -5
But Fordo doesn't compare to Rex, at all. I'm not saying we should compare him to Rex, but keep Rex in mind when costing him. Rex and 501st Clone Troopers are a better basis for a squad over Fordo and ARC Snipers in pretty much all situations.
You may not see any comparison to Dash because you're thinking of it in static (best word I could think of to describe this) terms. As in Fordo has abilities A, B, C, and D, while Dash has abilities A, E, F, and G. I'm thinking of it like Fordo has this set of abilities, and Dash has this set of abilities, and the the sets of abilities allow them to play in different ways, but similarly dangerous. I think Dash and Fordo are very similar in terms of how effective they are at shooting, maybe a slight edge to Dash because of his GMA and greater synergy in any faction.
Also, comparing Fordo to Han Solo, Scoundrel, is not a good idea. They're even more different than Rex and Fordo. The only similarities are comparable base stats, and Twin Attack and Accurate Shot. Han gains Cunning Attack, Mobile Attack, and Evade over Fordo. Han is also a follower, and in a completely different faction. Han has a Force rating too. I don't think we should compare to him.
The most I could see Fordo at (in his current version) is 30. I could see him with Mobile Attack, and a cost of about 37, though. Thoughts, Roquesaber? Anyone else have any ideas on the cost?
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Post by gwek on Dec 27, 2009 17:53:48 GMT -5
I understand everything you've said but respectfully disagree, especially using Rex or Dash as a model for pricing comparison. Both are very aggressively priced, and based on your own argument against Han (which I don't agree with), Dash is an equally weak point of comparison (moreso, because Dash is notoriously aggressively priced because of his popularity and as an "apology" for the previous Dash).
Hopefully someone else will weigh in.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 27, 2009 23:26:31 GMT -5
These are the stats we have so far (I've reworded the commander effect, I think it's better in this version): Captain Fordo Cost: 26-?? HP: 70 Def: 16 Att: 10 Dmg: 20 SA: Unique, ARC Trooper, Order 66, Twin Attack, Accurate Shot CE: Allied characters whose name contains ARC Trooper gain Evade and Twin Attack. I am in no way convinced that I'm looking at a mid-30s piece. I'm not suggesting we use Rex and/or Dash as a model, but keep them in mind when costing Fordo. As a shooter, Fordo is far less effective than Rex. Now, a squad with Rex and 501st Clone Troopers is far better than Fordo and ARC Snipers, as I've already mentioned. Rex is a superior shooter and a superior commander. So, IMO, there is NO reason to play Fordo when you can play Rex. THIS is why we have to avoid costing him the same as Rex. Now if he was worth 33-35, I would say we need to change him, but I am not convinced that Fordo is worth a single point more than 30. I'm not sure why you'd pick Dash for a comparison. Although they have somewhat comparable core stats and both have Twin, there's not much similarlity. I think Han Solo, Scoundrel is a much better point for comparison (although Solo is clearly the "better" piece.) Solo and Fordo have the same base damage (20), roughly comparable stats otherwise (within one notch of each other) and share Twin and Accurate. Solo has the great combo of Cunning Attack, Mobile Attack, and Evade, while Fordo has only ARC Trooper and Order 66. Solo clearly "wins," but Fordo's commander effect must be taken into account. It's somewhat limiting for Fordo, but a great boon in the right squad. Again, I say cheaper than HS Scoundrel, more expensive than Argyus. I find it interesting that you state that comparing to Dash is weak, when there is even LESS of a comparison to Han Solo, Scoundrel. As I've said, the similarities are the base stats, Twin Attack, and Accurate Shot, and they end there. Not only that, but Han is in a completely different faction. Dash may be Fringe, but that's a lot more similar to Republic than Rebel is. There is very little comparison between Fordo and Han. After searching bloomilk, I think the best character to compare Fordo with is Commander Cody (from GaW). Fordo has +20 HP, -1 attack, and Twin Attack, while Cody gains Deadly Attack, Flurry Attack, and a Rapport for Clone Troopers. Fordo's CE offers more powerful abilities, but Cody's offers pretty good abilites to a much broader range of pieces. Both are commanders with Order 66. Cody costs 23 points, a pretty good cost for him, though maybe one or two points too high. But yes, please, someone else weigh in. It seems that neither of us will change our minds, so we'll be at a standstill until someone does weigh in...
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