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Post by gwek on Mar 4, 2009 13:16:48 GMT -5
I think Lightsaber Duelist is going to impact the cost less than some other elements.
I finally sat down and compared him to the other versions of Dooku. There are 4 versions from WotC, with costs ranging from 48-52. Since all of them are pretty similar, we can assume an average cost of 50 for the WotC versions, and finetune from there.
Let's compare him to them:
Hit Points: They all have 120 or 130. Your version has 110, so let's subtract 1.5 from the cost (48.5).
Defense: 3 have 21, one has 20. You have 21, so no cost adjustment.
Attack: 3 have 15, one has 16. You have 14, so let's subtract another 1, bringing cost to 47.5.
In terms of special abilities, they all have a "base" of Unique, Melee Attack, Double Attack, and Lightsaber Duelist. Your guy has the same, but with Triple Attack, which will significantly up the cost. I'd suggest considering changing to Double Attack, and will not, currently make any cost adjustments.
All WotC versions have either Lightsaber Block (3 versions) or Makashi Style Master (1 version). You went with MSM, which should up the cost by 1 or 2. (Back up to 49.)
3 versions have Force 5, but one has (like yours) F2, FR1, MotF 2. I'd say that's got to up the cost by at least 2 (current cost: 51).
What else? Your guy has Force Lightning 2, Force Grip 3, and Lightsaber Riposte. This is *generally* in line with the other versions. All have some form of Lightning paired with LS Riposte or Precision (or, in one case, Dark Insipration). So you basically have Force Grip as an "extra". Although largely redundant with Force Lightning, they represent two different (efficient) options, so I'd say cost +1 (52).
Then we get to the commander effect. I'm not sure how to rate that, but it's pretty gorram effective. Most Sep commanders EITHER have low HP (and thus benefit greatly from Avoid Defeat) OR have a Force rating (so they gain Mettle). Although there's a 6 square limit on the first part, this is somewhat offset by the number of low-end Fringe commanders who can benefit greatly from Avoid Defeat. On the other hand, though, since most of the better Sep followers are droids, there's a synergy disconnect there... And after mentally meandering a bit, I'd guess that the CE weighs in at about 7 points, which is just enough to keep him under 60 points.
Comparing him to other Dookus, I'd just his cost at around 58 or 59 NOT INCLUDING TRIPLE ATTACK. If you want to keep that, I can plug into my generator and see what comes up.
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Post by planeswalker459 on Mar 4, 2009 17:05:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the write up gwek. It puts this Dooku into perspective.
It also has given me some crazy ideas. Because I like the combo of Grip/Lightning, perhaps we could drop him to a SINGLE attack. He still has fantastic damage potential, and if he does get Lightsaber Duelist, then he will last quite some time in melee.
With a sinlge attack, it should drivedown his cost a fair ammount, which also makes his style as a duelist fit more-He makes everyone else work to hit him, but he doesnt need ot brea a sweat to do the same to them. And if someone can even touch him, well then he uses the force to kill them.
If we think a single attack is too low, then I think we can agree to drop him to 2 attacks.
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Post by gwek on Mar 6, 2009 14:29:09 GMT -5
I'm not loving him with a single attack. In the cartoon, he's really depicted in a multi-attack kind of way.
Also, right now WotC only has a very limited number of high-end pieces without multi-attack of some sort with a cost of over 40. Two have Reinforcements, and one is Zam Wesell.
I'd go double, price him at 58 or so, and call it a day.
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Post by planeswalker459 on Mar 6, 2009 15:31:16 GMT -5
58 and Double seems fair. Changing now
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Post by gwek on Mar 9, 2009 19:09:14 GMT -5
So... thumbs up from me!
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Post by generalgrevious on Apr 12, 2009 14:33:33 GMT -5
Alrightly then good ol Lord Tyrannus.. My suggestion is to raise his attack by one (If you look at all other versions of him he has at least a +15 attack which I think suits him.) Also I think giving Mettle to only people with Commander effects is limiting so maybe make it Unique Allies with a Force Rating. Also usally with Tyrannus you give him Sith Lightning while either one is alright Sith I beleive suits him better. And although he has Makashi lets make him more deadly to Jedi. Then lastly paying 58 points for a decent commander effect and decent stats is a bit much. So this is what I recomend.
Lord Tyrannus Cost: 49 HP: 110 Def: 21 Atk: +15 Dmg: 20 Special Abilities Melee attack; Double attack Lightsaber Duelist (+4 Defence against adjacent enemies with a force rating) Makashi Style Mastery (When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11. Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, and Niman Style cannot be used against this character.) Unique Force powers Force 2; Force Renewal 1; Master of the Force 2 Force Grip 3 (Force 3, replaces attacks: sight; 30 damage to target.) Sith Lightning 3 (Force 3, replaces attacks: range 6; 40 damage) Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker) Commander Effect Allied Commanders within 6 squares gain Avoid Defeat. Unique Allies with a Force Rating gain Mettle.
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Post by planeswalker459 on Apr 14, 2009 10:36:17 GMT -5
not bad generalgrievous. However, while I liek some of the changes, there seems to be a disparity in you cost and mine.
I dont think the changes you made ammount to a 9 point cost reduction
Perhaps 5 less? Makes him cheaper than GOWK, and puts him on par with that Jedi amster as well.
What say you to that?
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Post by gwek on Apr 17, 2009 2:15:19 GMT -5
Unless GG made changes other than the three suggested, shouldn't the cost actually go UP?!?
Raising the attack +1 is no big deal.
Changing the second part of the commander effect to impact non-commanders... I think it takes a little of the thematic charm away, but I guess I don't see the harm.
As for Sith Lightning vs Force Lightning, either one works on him (in fact, I think there are 2 versions with each), but I'd strongly advice against the souped up version that GG has created, and just keep him with a standard version of whatever he gets (30 damage or less). There's already a "super-lightning" version of Dooku (LotDS), and I thought the role of THIS version was to make him an effective commander.
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Post by generalgrevious on Apr 17, 2009 7:29:27 GMT -5
If you compare the one I made compared to other current miniatures in the game in the same cost zone I think its not that extreme. I don't think its extreme at all really. He is on the 2nd lowest ranked faction as well. Just look at GOWK, Mara Jade, Jedi, and many more power pieces in the 40-60 range. Also about the commander effect change, it changes so that Fringe Unique force users can get it, and I can only think of about 3 characters that would get affected more from his new CE.
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Post by gwek on Apr 17, 2009 11:55:29 GMT -5
If you compare the one I made compared to other current miniatures in the game in the same cost zone I think its not that extreme. See my first post on page 2 of this thread for an analysis of PW's Dooku vs existing Dookus. It's possible that I may have priced the cost of the commander effect a little high, but his Dooku was already the "best" Dooku, and yours makes him more effective. Usually, being a commander is a bit of a limitation that helps offset the cost, but in the case of living charactes in the Seps, that's not really true. I think there are maybe 4 commander effects that a non-commander Dooku has access to that a non-commander Dooku has, and most of them aren't great for him. I think you're mis-reading the game dynamic. While the Seps aren't Top Three, they're certainly not at the bottom of the heap any more (post Clone Wars). And while I see what you're saying about comparing him to other piecesi n the 40-60 range, for game balance purposes, it's VERY important to compare him to other Dookus. The goal, in my opinion, is to make a good, solid piece that doesn't make EXISTING pieces obsolete. If he's significantly better but doesn't cost a bit more, that's problematic from a game design viewpoint. Non-customs aside, there are 11 pieces that can be impacted by the change to the commander effect, ranging from Logray to Cade Skywalker. Not a huge thing, but consider the overall game impact. In part, broadening this commander effect has the supplemental impact of making the Old Republic worse. And the OR is undoubtedly one of the bottom factions. Right now, one of the best commander effects for the OR faction is Nomi's Mettle to all allies. That's one of the few unique gimmicks the Old Rep has going for it. To broaden Dooku's commander effect takes that away to some extent. Not saying this is a huge thing, but I think it's worth noting. In addition, this is a bit of a dynamic shift away from what we discussed with Dooku as the "commander's commander." Again, nothing earthshattering, but worth noting.
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Post by generalgrevious on Apr 17, 2009 12:01:14 GMT -5
Maybe we should change it to "Allied Septertist's with a force rating gain Mettle" That way any new characters without a commander effect and force points may be affected by it but still keeps OR with the Fringe Mettle Combo.
There are some points on him that I would like to fix as well. To me he still doesn't stand out from other Dookus right now. I really have no ideas to help him stand out.
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Post by planeswalker459 on Apr 17, 2009 12:54:23 GMT -5
Good points Gwek and GG. I like having a solid discussion to improve pieces.
@ GG: While I agree that he doesnt stand out too much from prievous Dooku's, he is different enough. FG3 now allows him to sit in the back with the other fragile commanders of the Seps, and destroy anyone who gets too close to him and his friends.
He also has a CE, making him vastly superior to most other Dookus, and Makashi Style Mastery, which only 1 other Dooku ahs at this point.
I do think the point about making it Sep Allies with a force rating gain mettle is a good one, but as currently written, only Asajj, GGJH and Sidious benefit from it. To change it to the above, I add only Maul.
For this Dooku specifically, I wanted him to be the Commander of the Clones wars. Since he never met maul, froma flavor stand point, it makes no sense to give him mettle. From a gaming persepctive, it can make sense, but not enough in my book.
They are good ideas though, and if we 3 can come up with solid ways to incooperate them, I say we do it!
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Post by generalgrevious on Apr 17, 2009 12:56:56 GMT -5
Really I was thinking toward the future with that. There is a very likely chance that the new Asajj doesnt have a CE.
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Post by planeswalker459 on Apr 17, 2009 13:02:08 GMT -5
Quiet possible, although we will be getting 2 Asajj in the next 3-4 months, so Im crossing my fingers 1 is a commander. Heaven knows the seps need more than grievous if they are going to compete beyond lancer
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Post by gwek on Apr 17, 2009 14:17:05 GMT -5
In terms of him standing out from other Dookus: this is the first--and only--commander version. That's HUGE!
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