|
Post by Roque Saber on Apr 11, 2009 22:19:29 GMT -5
Thats only against adjacents. We need something to keep his range damage up, possibly fixable by just giving him 30 base damage.
|
|
|
Post by Jm419 on Apr 12, 2009 9:00:00 GMT -5
Would you be okay with dropping the Poison blade, then?
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Apr 16, 2009 0:01:35 GMT -5
without Poison Blade, there's no reason to ever go Melee. I kind of wanted this piece to be versatile in that sense.
|
|
|
Post by planeswalker459 on Apr 16, 2009 12:07:12 GMT -5
With cunning, ti would be 30 to all droids, 40 to living. So its not bad.
With twin from the captain its a potential 60 to droids/80 to living. Considering others in the faction can get 80 easily, its not a streatch. Plus, Mando's should be the faction where their "grunts" can do the msot damage, because their cost compenstates.
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Apr 16, 2009 22:43:44 GMT -5
Indeed. Mandos have once again been left in the dust after CW and IE, they need more Tier 1 capable pieces.
|
|
|
Post by Jm419 on Apr 17, 2009 15:47:48 GMT -5
It's true.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Apr 22, 2009 23:14:54 GMT -5
If you look at existing non-unique Mandos, they all follow a very specific pattern:
*HP range from 40 to 60 (the Quartermaster bends this rule) *Def ranges from 16 to 18 *Attack ranges from 8 to 10 *No single piece is tops in all three categories
First thing I'd suggest is moving the stats into those parameters.
If you want to go with a poison theme, drop Double Attack and Satchel Charge.
I would also go with the "real" version of Virulent Poison Dart. You don't need 50 damage to have incentive to use the ability: the incentive is that it's a single attack (so you don't have to worry about two different rolls), and it's a saving-throw-based ability, rather than attack-based (so you can circumvent high defense). Heck, even at 30 damage, there would be times when it's definitely advantageous to use.
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Apr 23, 2009 10:18:34 GMT -5
Well, if you notice, all but 3 of those are shooters, who usually have lower stats. This character was meant to be a high-costing, melee/shooter piece. If he didn't have Poison Blade (which is the reason to go melee) his stats would be lower.
Also, for the Dart. I think even with it's increased damage, it would rarely be used. He get's 4 attacks at +16 with the Captain and Quartermaster (the captain is in almost every squad. So, you have much more incentive to stay back and snipe someone rather than use your turn to do a possible 50 damage (or 40)
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Apr 23, 2009 12:06:35 GMT -5
Well, if you notice, all but 3 of those are shooters, who usually have lower stats. This character was meant to be a high-costing, melee/shooter piece. If he didn't have Poison Blade (which is the reason to go melee) his stats would be lower. I understand what you're saying, but WotC is VERY consistent with their non-unique Mandalorians, whether they have melee attack or not. Keep in mind also that most of those shooters have 10 damage, not 20. The ones with higher than 10 damage are either commanders or have very simple special abilities (unlike this guy). If you look at the three melee pieces (not including the Quartermaster), they are at the LOW end of the range, actually (but with 20 damage). In terms of game balance, though, I don't think there's any non-unique, non-huge that has an ability that includes more than 40. To be honest, for a generic, WotC often goes to a WEAKER version of a unique's signature ability. Another thing to keep in mind is that one of the distinguishing traits of the Mandalorian faction is that it has very FEW straight-damage abilities. Only 2 out of 20 pieces have them (one is unique, both are commanders). To give a non-unique piece a special ability that is the damager in the faction (and possibly one of the best in the game, in terms of high damage and tough saving throw) may be a bit too much. In terms of faction and game balance, I still say Virulent Dart 40 (or even 30) and keep the stats within "standard" Mando variance. Maybe something like: Cost: HP:60 Def:16 Att:10 Dmg:20 Stealth Virulent Poison Dart 40 Poison Blade
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Apr 23, 2009 13:40:38 GMT -5
But then why on earth would I want to play that piece at all. It's useless to me, the Scout is far better for it's cost. This piece basically kind of makes me want to go into close range, but it' s obvious that I shouldn't because of his pathetic defense and low end HP. (depending on how much he costs of course) I would take the Quartermaster if I wanted a melee fighter b/c he has Parry, 2 more defense, more potential damage, and a good CE to boot. The point I've been trying to make on all these Mandos is that they *need* to be very aggressively costed, otherwise this faction will sink once again to the bottom like they were when they came out. Whether you want to admit it or not, power creep is moving over the game. You Cannot look at a BH piece for comparison b/c the game has advanced drastically since then. You Cannot say "my goodness, a Yuuzhan Vong with 20 base damage, that's only been done once, it musn't be allowed!" because the game has progressed. *end rant*
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Apr 23, 2009 14:50:44 GMT -5
I think you need to chill, brother. But then why on earth would I want to play that piece at all. It's useless to me, the Scout is far better for it's cost. This may have escaped you're notice, but the stats I suggested didn't include a cost, so it's kinda tough to say that the Scout is far better for it's cost. How exactly does one compare a cost of 19 vs " "? Statistically speaking, 60 is VERY high for a non-unique. With 2 exceptions, EVERY non-unique piece produced by WotC with more than 60 HP is huge, savage, a droid, or a Force-user (and even if you include those categories, they only account for a small portion of pieces overall). That aside, however, why would you play this guy? Well, I'd play him for the VPD and the Poison Blade. He's an excellent scrub killer, with multiple options to take down an opponent with 30 HP, as well as the highest direct-damage ability in the Mandalorian faction (even at VPD 40). Beyond that, he's great support for a melee anchor, which is where he is much better than, say, the Quartermaster. If you base an enemy, the MQM will have to endanger himself to do damage. This guy can sit 6 squares away and do a lot. And that type of flexibility is a great boon to the Mandalorian faction. Is it a game-changing piece? Certainly not. Faction-changing? Probably not that either, but it could definitely fill an important niche... and doesn't need Jedi-killer stats to do so. See, here's the funny thing: it's exactly because of that power creep that I always try to be cautious with what we do here. We're basically trying to accomplish the same types of things from two completely different approaches. As I've said in other threads, when I design a custom (or comment on someone else's), my goal is not to make existing pieces useless, but to add new options, and when possible supplement existing pieces. I try to look at the current design philosophies used by WotC and keep them in mind. I think it's silly to discount pieces simply because they came out a few sets ago. Rob and WotC have done an excellent job of keeping MANY pieces consistently useful. With each new set that comes out, there are commander effects that revitalize older pieces. The game certainly evolves and progresses, but I consider part of the fun here to be coming up with stuff that works with that dynamic and works with EXISTING pieces, rather than trying to blow away what WotC has done. For example, although I consider Carth Onasi to be one of the most disappointing pieces I've seen, my fix wasn't to say "Let me make a new Carth that's better than WotC's piece of crap," but instead to say "How can I make an Admiral Saul Karath that makes Carth the guy he should be, the piece who IS worth his cost?" Having said that, I don't disagree that there should be some aggressive costing, especially for the "minor" factions, but my feedback will always be tempered by whether a custom will make existing pieces largely useless.
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Apr 23, 2009 20:43:11 GMT -5
Yep. I was very tired this morning and needed an argument to get my brain started, sorry 'bout that. Let's start over (in a sense) with this piece. What do we want it to accompish, what niche (as you put it) should it fill? What will it add to the faction? And, how will it be good without making other pieces unplayable?
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Apr 23, 2009 23:52:49 GMT -5
No worries, some rants are good sometimes.
And, honestly, we all play on this site for different reasons, so it's good once in a while to discuss what we're going for (in broad terms, I mean, not in terms of individual pieces).
I definitely agree that it's good to role of the piece within the faction.
So what were you thinking of for the Death Watch Commando? (I may have gotten a bit overzealous by focusing on the Virulent Poison Dart, because I've been wanting to work on a Mando piece that filles the niche of "good direct damage piece").
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Apr 24, 2009 9:48:56 GMT -5
When I created it (a looooooong way back I wanted it to be a high costing, tough piece. KInda like a Destroyer Droid for the Mandos, but a little different. That's pretty much it.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Apr 24, 2009 14:40:50 GMT -5
Well, see, the problem with the Destroyer Droid is that it's, y'know, a Droid, and they follow different guidelines than non-Droids (as well they should, since commander effects don't generally work on them).
|
|