Balance of Power

[gwek]

Can't read all of the text, but from what I see most of it is okay. Zannah looks like she will never die, though.

She does indeed look like she will never die. I'm not a big fan of "overlapping" defenses like she has, but one thing to keep in mind is that the V-Set folk have also introduced an ability called Overwhelming Power (damage from this character's attacks cannot be prevented or redirected), so there is already a theoretical counter in place.

Still, the biggest problem the Sith have is getting their big guns to the fight. Darth Zannah is exactly the kind of character who CAN get there and still have some juice left in her.

Kaan's Thought Bomb, if I'm reading it right, looks much less useful than Unleash the Force.

A hotly debated ability since it was spoiled a month (or more?) ago. I tend to think that it's more of a "big stick" ability than one to actually use. You field Kaan, and your opponent's strategy suddenly changes because you MIGHT use Thought Bomb. A clever player never actually has to use it, just have it on the board.

Is that VCA 2 on the Fire Breather? I hope that's a mistake, there's no reason for even having a save if it's just 2.

Not a mistake, and another hot topic at the time. The game designers said there were reasons they went with VCA 2 instead of DR 10... but it was a while ago, so I don't remember what was said.

Maul looks broken. Four attacks on the move at 40 damage each? I hope there's no way to buff his damage or give him FR.

If that's you're hope, I'm thinking you haven't looked too closely at the pieces from DotF recently.

In a Sep squad, he can get more FPs from Sidious DLotS. In a Sith squad, he's brutality on wheels. Darth Bandon gives a flat +10 damage against adjacent enemies (which I think would stack with Sith Rage), he get get Force Renewal from HoloSid, and he can also spend the Force points of the new Exar Kun Dark Side Spirit (who can ALSO, I believe, give him Force Renewal!).

In fairness, though, as with Darth Zannah, one of my mantras with the Sith for many months has been "Get them to the fight alive and get them better damage output." These guys do that.

Are they both very powerful? Definitely. Are they broken? Perhaps. Are they MORE broken than things that the major factions have gotten in the past? See, that's where I think it's okay.

Anyways it looks decent, not a lot of ideas we could use here though.

To me, it's less a matter of mining for ideas (although I will admit that a number of my own ideas were inspired, at least in part, by new special abilities and commander effects that appear in R&R) than it is being aware of the changing dynamic.

For example, in previous attempts, I have always been hot to push for more damage output for the Sith and the Old Republic, but now we need to keep in mind DotF's Bastila and Bandon. When we've talked about the Vong and Old Rep, we've always talked about movement breakers, but Master Thon's Mount ability needs to be factored into any discussion now, as does the new movement options the Vong have gotten.

[bountyhunter9]

Yeah, I haven't really been following the V-sets unless one of you has mentioned a specific piece that could change how we design some of our customs, I'm just judging based on what WotC did. Agree on the overlapping defenses thing. But an Overwhelming Power SA would certainly be the bane of Zannah.

Thought Bomb: That's a good point, something I didn't think of, but I was comparing it to Unleash the Force in terms of lore, which would mean it should be stronger. I guess it is stronger (not by much though), but less useful. Granted, making it a lot stronger than Unleash the Force isn't really possible, so what they did with it is okay. He seems VERY tough to use properly though. Could be fun to rush into a group of enemies to get some automatic damage early in the game, assuming he can make it that far and your opponent lets it happen. Maybe Zannah could give him cover.

Yeah, there's plenty of die rolling in the game already. Remember back when you didn't have to worry about two or three (or more) saves every turn? They should have just called it Vonduun Crab Armor and left out the save entirely if they wanted it to affect lightsabers.

Maul: I didn't see the Affinity for Sith on Maul at first. That could quite possibly make it worse. With the options you mentioned G, any decent player will give him as much Force as he needs, and he'll be able to use Force Cloak. On top of the +10 damage from Bandon, you're going to lose pretty much any character without some kind of defense, and not be able to do anything about it. Unless you can sneak an MJJ or Lord Vader and get the first strike. With that style he has, it's going to need to be an extremely powerful melee piece, or multiple shooters that rush him. That said, it's good to see some non-Lancer options for the Seps, and he fits the Sith well. I wouldn't want to play against him, though.

It may not be as broken as I thought at first (even though I now know he can be in a Sith squad), but that extreme damage potential, the huge threat he represents, and his very good defensive abilities make him more powerful than practically anything in the game. And the buffs he can get just push that farther. Sure, you have to build around him, but... I don't like him .

Yeah, the OR has a lot of good options now (I'd say they've probably gained the most from the V-sets, from what little I know). Most of them (well, Bastila and Thon) are fairly expensive though, so it'll probably be a small number of effective builds we'd need to worry about (better than nothing though!). I can't read Mount, but I assume it's similar to Tow Cable or a much more limited version of Desert Skiff. A good option for the OR. Old Atton might actually be worth looking at now!

[gwek]

The V-Sets are definitely worth looking into. Much as I would rather have "real" sets (because no matter how cool the new stats are, I want my plastic fix!), the designers have done a very good job of fixing some of the issues that WotC left us with. The first V-Set took me a little time to get used to because some of the changes were so radical, but they're definitely well-crafted.

On Kaan: I don't necessarily disagree with you about Thought Bomb, but I think the designers made a good decision by putting it on a relatively low-priced piece. R&R actually gives the Sith not one but three Uniques (if you count Atton) in the 30-39 range, which was previously "empty." Kaan is one of them. Thought Bomb on a 50+ piece means you really need to want it. At 36 points, though... Different story.

On VCA 2: Again, hey, I'm not saying I disagree. Just saying that it was discussed (and the designer comments seemed reasonable enough, from what I remember).

On Maul: Apparently, he was originally priced lower (51, I think), but some of the designers felt he was too cheap, so the compromise was to raise the cost and give him Affinity. I agree that he's quite a beast (but, again, a beast the Sith really needed!). In a Separatist squad, I think he fills a very interesting role. He's powerful enough that he can really run on his own, without any support, so you could, for example, design a Droid-centric squad but STILL have Maul in there, even though he doesn't have much synergy with the rest of the squad--which is exactly how Maul SHOULD play, I think.

As an aside, I think Overwhelming Power also works against his Teras Kasi Style, giving the Sith an interesting niche (since the Sith seem to be the faction with the most Overwhelming Power, at the moment). The designers are doing a good job of giving each faction different tricks.

On the Old Rep: There are apparently already a number of decently competitive builts (at the 200 point level). The new Bastila only costs 33 and is a HUGE game-changer. The Revanchist clocks in at 42 points and gives allies within 6 square Ambush. The Old Rep Senator (14 points) has a CE that allows an Old Rep follower to take an attack at +10 damage. The best builds (after the first V-Set) seem to revolve around "Mira Cannons" (giving Mira extra attacks via Old Rep Senator) and Jedi Battlemasters paired with Bastila and/or the Revanchist.

With this newest V-Set, we've got a playable Carth and a second playable (but very different) Atton that lend themselves to a variety of "cannon" squads. Throw in a Klatooinian Captain (Fringe), who gives Pilots Evade and Movement 8, and even the OLD Carth Onasi might actually be playable!

Sure, the major factions are also gaining ground, but I think we're at a stage where the Sith and the Old Rep actually stand a solid chance of competing with the big boys.

And all of that now needs to be factored into OUR stuff.

[gwek]

If anyone is interested, regular (ie, "readable") pdfs are now available for Renegades & Rogues, Battle of Theed, and Epic. They can be downloaded at SWMGamers. Some pretty cool stuff.