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Post by Dendrite on May 2, 2010 15:14:50 GMT -5
Good work on the cards, surf. They look good. On Joruus, the best thing to drop would probably be Force Corruption 1. I can't see any way to fix it without dropping something, and Corruption is, IMO, the least important ability he has. It also takes up the most text. I agree. If something must go, it will probably be Corruption.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 2, 2010 22:10:10 GMT -5
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Post by Roque Saber on May 2, 2010 23:44:48 GMT -5
Good work on the cards, surf. They look good. On Joruus, the best thing to drop would probably be Force Corruption 1. I can't see any way to fix it without dropping something, and Corruption is, IMO, the least important ability he has. It also takes up the most text. I agree. Honestly, when playtesting, Corruption never even crossed my mind. I don't think it's that essential to the piece as a whole. Btw, check the Vassal playtesting thread stickied at the top of the forum.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 2, 2010 23:52:49 GMT -5
I'm feeling rather braindead after playing with the cards; if I take out Corruption ... reduce cost by 3?
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Post by gwek on May 3, 2010 0:44:46 GMT -5
RS, based on the card issue and your playtesting, it seems we need to re-address Joruus. Can you re-open his thread and copy your feedback there?
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Post by Roque Saber on May 3, 2010 10:14:13 GMT -5
Sure thing.
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Post by gwek on May 3, 2010 13:40:31 GMT -5
Thanks, man. I've been in touch with Galak Fyyar, who has some questions and some bad news. I'll post more when I have time later, but he basically indicated that he can't make Joruus fit (which we knew), but he's also having problems with Vergere (not entirely a surprise). This means that we're going to have problems with Celeste (of course) and possibly even Lord Hoth as well.
I know Surf was able to get some of those to work, but I guess his spacing or something is outside of WotC's guidelines?
Anyway, more tonight.
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Post by Roque Saber on May 3, 2010 15:17:30 GMT -5
Well, to be brutally honest, surf's cards have quite a few things going against them. They're a good start, but there's just problems with resolution, spacing, and orderliness. Like I suggested in another thread, we could abbreviate Force Powers' definitions to save space.
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Post by gwek on May 3, 2010 16:08:18 GMT -5
As I have in that thread (and will continue to do in every thread where the idea comes up), I an firmly against that suggestion.
I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but if we can't follow WotC's guidelines, we look unprofessional. If we need to break their rules to make our pieces work, we're cheating.
By the way, might as well unlock Vergere. Only a matter of time until we need to address her.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 3, 2010 16:09:11 GMT -5
I know Surf was able to get some of those to work, but I guess his spacing or something is outside of WotC's guidelines? Well, to be brutally honest, surf's cards have quite a few things going against them. They're a good start, but there's just problems with resolution, spacing, and orderliness. Like I suggested in another thread, we could abbreviate Force Powers' definitions to save space. I thought resolution was the least of the problems; what bothered me more were the obvious inconsistencies of the pics used; the rather obvious lack of a consistant source for them. the spacing and therefore orderliness was inconsistant due to the amount of text used; to get a consistant size on the text, they need to be approximately the same number of lines/text used each card. I said I'd be more than happy to let someone with real graphics ability redo these ... I'm only a History teacher working with Paint and PowerPoint. Maybe Galek can clean up the pics to get more of a consistent look, but to clean up the rest, we need to redo the cards ... I read a critique over on Gamers, can't remember who, but it was somebody like Nickname (Dean?) and they said the problem with Custom cards is they're always overpowered/undercosted. I disagree on the undercosted part, but you've got to admit, most of our cards are chock full of everything we could throw in there. If you want a "cleaner" card, we need to make them leaner, with fewer abilities; streamline .... I realize this may be throwing a lot of hard work out the window, but as I did the cards I realized that there were too many variations at work ... "this card used size 12, but that card needed to be 10, oh wait, this won't fit"....The only way this will look clean, professional (even with Galek doing them off my rough work) and workable is to streamline it all to a more consistant level, say X lines per card and No More; whatever fits, that X is it ... and yes, we may kill each other revisiting and hammering it out, but again, we either do it right or chuck it. Cutting corners isn't what I want to do, and I Know Gwek doesn't either, and I've put too much work into this to say skrew it ....................... my only question is what is "X?" I'm a History, not a Math teacher ......
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Post by surfrider56 on May 3, 2010 17:14:44 GMT -5
By the way, might as well unlock Vergere. Only a matter of time until we need to address her. I suspect we may have to revist ALL 22 to achieve a uniform consistency/professional level .......
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Post by surfrider56 on May 3, 2010 19:34:07 GMT -5
To support streamlining, I did a little experiment.
I checked out the cards I made, picking 5 cards that seemed to be in the middle of the "clutter zone," with Celeste, Joruus, etc. having too many lines, and Captain Fordo, Demagol, and Yammosk at the other end with tons of room.
I looked at
Master Tholme Tycho Celchu Ganner Rhysode Cassus Fett Alto Stratus
After counting the lines (and spaces counted as a line,) this is what I came up with ...
Master Tholme 24 Lines Tycho Celchu 20 Lines Ganner Rhysode 23 Lines Cassus Fett 22 Lines Alto Stratus 18 Lines
Tholme and Tycho were crowded looking, Ganner was borderline, closer to the crowded side than the good, with Cassus being pretty good and Alto great.
I happen to have the card for Boba Fett, Enforcer handy, and I counted; He had 20 lines, with No spaces, and it was borderline crowded, more to the good than bad.
I think we need to look at making cards 22-21 or less lines. No its a pretty small sample, but its closer to the truth, never mind the mark, than we've been thinking.
We've been thinking outside the box; unfortunelty our box was a little Too Big ... time to streamline.
PS - why didn't we think about this from the start? Maybe no real minimum, but it needed to have a max cutoff on lines ......
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Post by gwek on May 3, 2010 19:37:49 GMT -5
Surf,
A few thoughts:
First, regardless of what happens with the cards, regardless of the inconsistencies, I say it's a valiant effort. Definitely beyond awesome to the the graphic representation of all our hard work! So, my whining abou spacing and font size aside, thanks for that!
On the stats: You're definitely preaching to the choir with me in overall concept. Although I've periodically been responsible for some of the cramming myself, I freely admit, I think I've been pretty consistent in my approach to "Let's not clutter the card" and "Let's not make him uber-fanboy." Part of the problem in the past has been that we just didn't have as clear an idea of what fits on a card as we should have. (For example, I thought that Ben Skywalker was fairly streamlined, but dang, he looks cluttered!).
I support an effort to re-visit the pieces, as long as we don't drag our feet. If it becomes another round of "Well, let's fiddle with stats for five months," I'm taking my stats for Gryph (who was approved almost immediately except for a weeks-long discussion about what to name a new ability!) and going home!
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Post by Roque Saber on May 3, 2010 20:40:02 GMT -5
I'm only a History teacher working with Paint and PowerPoint. /quote] I'm sorry if I came across kind of condescendingly, I didn't mean it that way at all. I love that you spearheaded a part of the project that we've kind of been avoiding. I don't think we'll have to revisit all 22 for the cards. If anything, it will be after playtesting that we find they aren't balanced. The worst scenarios for cards were pieces like Hoth, Vergere, and Joruus.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 3, 2010 20:46:42 GMT -5
I think it might be simpler to streamline than we think/hope. Once we decide what our "X" limit is on lines ( I hereby propose a 20 line limit) it should be easy to decide what needs to be cut; if the knife is too deep and something essential is looking dead, yes we may need to revisit it and the purpose/intent of what we're trying to do with the piece.
Incidently, we probably need to give more proper names to some of the characters. Some of them are fine, but some could use a lil extra something ... ex. "Alto Stratus, Jedi Killer" or "Imperial Admiral Daala."
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